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Re these questions:

Scope: Actually my ideal is to ask this generally, but I think it's too big. I'm gonna limit asking to high school students, which is really my main target because I'm asking these re anime/manga which mainly feature high school students anyway. (For now, I'm just going to forego thinking about this for the anime/manga characters that are 20+.)

Question: Suppose student Ashanti Tanaka calls student Bidatz Mikoto as Mikoto-san. How relevant is the gender of Ashanti or Bidatz for if later Ashanti would later "upgrade" to call Bidatz as Bidatz-san or Mikoto-kun/chan (but not Bidatz-kun/chan)?

  • Somehow, I suspect Japanese boys will upgrade calling other Japanese boys from last name-san to last name-kun but will upgrade calling Japanese girls from last name-san to 1st name-san. Idk. I know age factors in here, but my question here would then be: in any case of age, does gender ever matter?

Note 1: Also, hopefully this isn't an issue, but I hope we can assume for simplicity that 'kun' is used only for males and 'chan' is used only for females, even though of course I know it's not true. If not, then please explain why this assumption must be violated to really answer this.

Note 2: My issue is the 'upgrading' of last name-san to either 1st name-san or last name-whatever honorific, NOT why sometimes males/females can be called, resp, chan/kun. And also the honorific in 'last name-whatever honorific' is meant to be fixed/predetermined like as follows:

  • Case 1: Bidatz Mikoto is female. Then Ashanti would say either 'Bidatz-san' or 'Mikoto-chan'. Here, it's given that 'Mikoto-kun' isn't a choice. Also, Bidatz-kun and any other forms of address other are somehow ruled out. How relevant is the gender of Bidatz or Ashanti in Ashanti's decision between 'Bidatz-san' and 'Mikoto-chan' ?

  • Case 2: Bidatz Mikoto is male. Then Ashanti would say either 'Bidatz-san' or 'Mikoto-kun'. Here, it's given that 'Mikoto-chan' isn't a choice. Also, Bidatz-chan and any other forms of address are somehow ruled out. How relevant is the gender of Bidatz or Ashanti in Ashanti's decision between 'Bidatz-san' and 'Mikoto-kun' ?

  • Or idk is 'any other forms of address are somehow ruled out' a huge or weird assumption to make?

Some examples:

  1. In My Stepmom's Daughter Is My Ex, Yume Irido (formerly Yume Ayai) calls male friend Kogure Kawanami by last name Kawanami-kun but female friend Akatsuki Minami by 1st name Akatsuki-san. See.
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  • In the West, it's common for boys to be addressed by their last name? Yes, this does happen. I don't think it's common. If it ever was common in the States, then I think it was restricted to the South & only among peers, which is the only place I've ever heard/used this manner of addressing one another. It would only really occur in tightly bonded groups otherwise it just sounds vaguely off-putting. I've never heard it in a mixed-sex situation (I agree with you there). I think it's a relic of a by-gone era when strangers addressed each other as Mr/Mrs (etc) so-and-so.
    – A.Ellett
    Commented Jul 8, 2022 at 13:11
  • @A.Ellett the stereotypical coach or PE teacher in fiction always calls players by last name. That's what pops into my head when I think of calling people by just their last name. Obviously real coaches or PE teachers probably do this as well, though I imagine less so than the fictional ones.
    – Leebo
    Commented Jul 8, 2022 at 14:24
  • @Leebo I had thought of that. And, in the military too, or anything with a similiar bent like a police academy or the captain of a ship toward the crew. But I think those are very specialized and exceptional situations. Also, in those situations, gender plays no role. Women would be addressed just as the men are--at least, in these days. I think what I was picking up on was the "at least with each other" portion of the OP's posting. That's something that I think is probably now becoming more and more rare. Though maybe, kids from military families might speak that way. Food for thought.
    – A.Ellett
    Commented Jul 8, 2022 at 14:31
  • @A.Ellett I'm talking of high school students specifically btw. But even outside I think it's common. But anyway ok it's definitely common in Japan. But the way I understood the Japan thing is in the context of the West thing: When Japanese boys call each other by last name-kun I think it's the same as when Western boys call each other by last name. When Japanese boys call Japanese girls last name-san, I don't think it has the same meaning when Western boys call Western girls by last name. But anyway going back to the question...
    – BCLC
    Commented Jul 11, 2022 at 2:28
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    Bidatz Mikoto <-- Just to confirm, Bidatz is the given name and Mikoto is the family name, correct?
    – chocolate ♦
    Commented Jul 15, 2022 at 0:29

1 Answer 1

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In high school, among boys groups,they never use さん and くん　each other since they can talk casually. Even if they are not friendly each other,they don’t use さん (they might use くん in this case,though).

But when they talk with girl students, they use さん. ESPECIALLY when they call the girl’s first name,they use さん　not to be regarded as so intimate with each other.

And,some instructors who are elderly often use くん regardless of gender not to make a difference between boy and girl.

So…in conclusion,we can’t distinguish between male or female just from さん and くん words strictly.

But in high school,we are using ちゃん mainly for girls. So when you read ちゃん in novel, this character is most likely female. But there is an exception like following one.

Sometimes,they call boy nickname+chan This way to use chan is used for expressing intimacy.

Ex, Yamada kun→ Yama cha But in high school,we are using ちゃん mainly for girls. So when you read ちゃん in novel, this character is most likely. But there is an exception.

Sometimes, boy sutudent’s nickname can be nicknamed like

Yamada kun→Yama chan

(Not in high school but in normal situations,chan can be used for little children like 赤ちゃん(akachan)=baby regardless of gender.This word can be used to call cute persons or creatures.)

And in fact,it’s very difficult to understand and explain completely even Japanese native speaker…

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  • What? It appears you made a whole answer over a little round bracket remark I made at the end of my post. I'm asking about the relevance of gender when one 'upgrades' calling Bidatz Mikoto from Mikoto-san to either Bidatz-san for Mikoto-chan/kun. For this purpose, I want to PRETEND for simplicity that kun = male and chan = female, although I know it's NOT ALWAYS TRUE. It's like using a mathematical model even if the assumptions aren't strictly true. Is it actually difficult to make this assumption for the purpose of answering this question?
    – BCLC
    Commented Jul 13, 2022 at 7:24
  • Zyunko I edited my post to hopefully be clearer. Rereading your post it seems only the 1st 2 paragraphs are relevant. But it still doesn't really answer my question...Maybe I wasn't so clear: The honorific kun/chan is meant to be fixed: Suppose Bidatz is female. We suppose Ashanti calls female Bidatz Mikoto as Mikoto-san initially. Then suppose that later Ashanti will call Bidatz as either Bidatz-san or Mikoto-chan. Like suppose Mikoto-kun, Bidatz-kun, Bidatz-chan and everything else are all ruled out. How relevant is Ashanti's gender or even Bidatz' gender in deciding how to call Bidatz?
    – BCLC
    Commented Jul 14, 2022 at 23:57

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