4

In

学校から帰ってきて寝るまでくらい

  1. I was under the impression that くらい is an adverbial particle (副助詞), but here it's acting as a noun (名詞)? Can it also function as a noun, or is there an implicit noun after くらい and before だ that's being colloquially dropped (maybe something like 時間)?

  2. Here's my rough translation attempt:

It's an approximation (くらいだ) of until (まで) I return home from school and sleep (学校から帰ってきて寝る).

This is pretty awkward :) I assume the sentence actually means:

It's the rough timespan of from when I return from school until I go to sleep.

or

It's roughly from when I return home from school until I go to sleep.

But if that's the case, why isn't there another から after 学校から帰ってきて? I'm not sure if this is grammatical, but I'm tempted to parse the sentence as

  • (学校から帰ってきて)から: From (から) after I return home from (から) school
  • (寝るまで)まで: until (まで) I sleep
  • くらいだ: it's the approximation
5
  • 2
    For context, the previous sentence is ノートに名前を書ける時間は限られている, right? くらい is marking the extent of time during which he can write in the note book. I'm not knowledgeable enough to break down the grammar nicely though. Commented Sep 25, 2023 at 18:31
  • 寝るまでくらいだ seems ungrammatical. Did you copy the sentence correctly?
    – naruto
    Commented Sep 26, 2023 at 0:36
  • Aくらい is more approximately A than approximation of A. Also, the usage here is #3 to describe quantity (in a broad sense).
    – sundowner
    Commented Sep 26, 2023 at 1:12
  • @naruto, デスノートのセリフで「時間を無駄にできないからね。ノートに名前を書ける時間は限られている。学校から帰ってきて寝るまでくらいだ。」というのがあって、これであってるみたいです。この「くらいだ」は roughly とか approximation じゃなくて、「せいぜい多くても~くらいしかない」 at most, not more than ですよね。
    – chocolate
    Commented Sep 26, 2023 at 1:13
  • 1
    あー、わかりました。 @George This is another example of a native speaker being unable to understand the sentence due to a lack of enough context. I was thinking of a totally different situation. Please always try to provide the full context.
    – naruto
    Commented Sep 26, 2023 at 3:10

3 Answers 3

4

I had never heard the term 副助詞 before, but after skimming this I can see why you're confused. A general explanation of how particles classified this way behave is likely beyond the scope of a single answer, and I'm not sure I could write one anyway, so I'm going to try and give a simpler intuitive explanation here.

Most of the 副助詞 in the link above modify meaning in the same way adverbs do, but grammatically can behave like nouns or adverbs. For example:

疲れて倒れるほど走った ~= I ran until I collapsed from exhaustion

「どれぐらい走った?」「疲れて倒れるほどだ」 ~= "How much did you run?" "So much that I collapsed from exhaustion"

In both of these cases, ほど is providing information about the degree/extent of the running, but in the former it grammatically behaves like an adverb and in the latter it behaves like a noun. Note that time also behaves like this, I.E. 2時間寝た and 2時間だ are both okay.

As for the sentence in your question, the previous sentence (which I'm assuming is the one user3856370 has kindly provided) helps clarify a bit .

ノートに名前を書ける時間は限られている。学校から帰ってきて寝るまでくらいだ

~= The time I can write my name in my notes is limited. It's only the period between when I come home from school and when I sleep.

In the second sentence まで and the ぐらい attached to it behave like nouns for something like ((学校から帰ってきて寝るまで)ぐらい)だ. Note that ぐらい is also used to emphasize the low or minimal extent of something, which is where the "only" in my English translation came from, although I'm not 100% sure about the intended meaning in this case. See here for more information about this.

Edit: Not sure why it's くらい instead of ぐらい in the example, although the pronunciation rules are not super clear (see here)

1
  • At first I found this sentence confusing, why would it be so difficult to find time to write one's own name in a notebook. But then I realized, this is from Death Note. So, this should be rendered, "The time I had to the names in the notebook was limited to the period between getting home from school and going to bed." And this makes sense since he was writing lots of names in that notebook every night.
    – A.Ellett
    Commented Oct 6, 2023 at 2:19
2

I offer this as an add-on to @Mindful's fine answer post.

Can it [kurai] also function as a noun?

The word くらい is both a noun and an adverbial particle. This originally was only a noun (cited to at least the 700s), and derives from a compound of 座【くら】 ("seat, place where something is put") + 居【ゐ】 ("being", noun form of verb ゐる, modern いる), literally "being in one's seat" in reference to "the place where one is sitting", extending to mean "one's place: one's position or rank", and then extending further to mean "degree or extent of something". The adverbial senses of "degree, amount, around about" first appear from the 1300s.

If you can read Japanese, more here at Kotobank.


Separately:

Edit: Not sure why it's くらい instead of ぐらい in the example, although the pronunciation rules are not super clear (see here

The specific pronunciation rules from the NHK:

  1. 体言には「ぐらい」が付く。
  2. 「この・その・あの・どの」には「くらい」が付く。
  3. 用言や助動詞には、普通は「ぐらい」が付くが、「くらい」が付くこともある。

This is consistent with くらい being a noun: when appended to another noun, くらい effectively becomes the second part of a compound noun, which (often) causes rendaku effects to appear. The fluidity when coming after other types of words is probably a reflection of this term's shifting usage, and how native speakers view the word in context.

In the sample sentence itself, the use of the くらい pronunciation could be an indication that the speaker views this くらい as a standalone noun.

2
  • 2
    This is excellent, thank you! I saw #3 on the NHK rules but it hadn't occurred to me that the deciding factor might be rendaku; that makes perfect sense though.
    – Mindful
    Commented Sep 25, 2023 at 23:54
  • Thanks for both of your answers! Do you or @Mindful know why there isn't a second から after 帰ってきて, as in 「学校から帰ってきてから寝るまでくらいだ」? Because otherwise the sentence seems to say "until (まで) returning home from school and sleeping.." rather than "from (から) returning home from school till (まで) sleeping...".
    – George
    Commented Sep 26, 2023 at 17:14
1

For reference, Martin states that these words, 'made', 'kurai', etc. have been variously called 吸着語, 形式名詞 and 形式副詞 by Japanese grammarians.

Both 'made' and 'kurai/gurai' belong to two classes, one which is commonly adnominalized, that is, modified by a preceeding sentence, and one where the word functions as a 'restrictive' (Martin's term, for want of better), a word that attaches to a noun and forms a single (noun) phrase---かぎり, 側, あたり etc.

When modified, e.g., S + made, the resulting phrase can function as a noun, as in the example in the question; or it can act as an adverb, with or without 'ni':

ぴかぴか光るまで[に]靴を磨いた '[I] brushed [my] shoes till they were shiny'

Or it can be further adnominalized:

恐ろしいまでの執念 'an obsession that bordered on the terrifying'

頑固なまでの自立性 'self-reliance to the point of being obstinate'

'Kurai/gurai' should thus be treated as a 'restrictive', attached to the noun 'made', and meaning, appropriately as you translate, 'roughly'.

3
  • 1
    Note that there is a difference in meaning between ~まで and ~までに. Commented Sep 26, 2023 at 1:07
  • Certainly 'made ni' with time expressions has a different meaning, but not when 'made' is adnominalized and then used adverbially: 彼は頑ななまでに友人との約束を守り続けた.
    – N. Hunt
    Commented Sep 26, 2023 at 4:37
  • Addendum: the presence or absence of 'ni' in the previous sentence has little effect on the meaning. Adding 'ni' may make it sound more assertive. Compare the increasing emphasis with the series それほど, それほどまで, それほどまでに.
    – N. Hunt
    Commented Sep 26, 2023 at 4:47

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .