Timeline for Would someone mind checking my translation of -だか and a contrastive は?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
19 events
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| Feb 21, 2018 at 1:11 | comment | added | chocolate♦ |
it's not saying "in contrast to the truth", it's saying "the truth is (in contrast to something else)". Which is functionally similar to using は as a normal topic marker -- It's not a literal translation. It's translated that way because it sounds more natural in your language. The English translation has the grammatical structure doesn't mean the original Japanese sentence has the same grammatical structure.
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| Feb 20, 2018 at 21:32 | comment | added | Hyperglyph | I added a link in the OP for a similar discussion on stack exchange. As I understand it (after reading that discussion), は here is technically a contrastive marker... but it's not saying "in contrast to the truth", it's saying "the truth is (in contrast to something else)". Which is functionally similar to using は as a normal topic marker. | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 19:08 | comment | added | user4092 | To be fair, some grammar theory considers this kind of は (as in 本当は) as a normal topic marker, while it depends on how you define it. (Being a topic doesn't necessarily contradict with being contrastive.) The problem is, OP misunderstood what's the contrastive marker. | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 10:33 | comment | added | chocolate♦ | ^ I agree that the は in 本当は is contrastive. (It's definitely not topic/thematic; 本当 is not the topic of this sentence, the は in よだかは is topical/thematic.) | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 9:43 | comment | added | Ben Roffey | While I agree that 本当は is easiest treated as a set phrase, I would say that the は of 本当は is in fact a "contrastive は" usage. It's contrasting the "truth" that you're about to state with the "untruth" that has been assumed up until that point. You could picture it as a pair of contrasting phrases 嘘は、XXX. でも本当は、YYY. It's just that the 嘘は half is generally not explicitly stated. | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 9:37 | comment | added | chocolate♦ |
@Hyperglyph the は in 本当は is just a normal topic marker. <-- no.. it's just saying that the topic is now 本当 and not 夜だか <-- no.. The topic is よだか. The は in よだかは is the topic/thematic marker. As @user4092 says, 本当は is an adverbial phrase (≂「実は」) meaning "actually", "in fact", "in reality" (hence the translation "The truth is~~".)
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| Feb 20, 2018 at 9:00 | comment | added | BJCUAI | I think you've got it. "The truth is, the nighthawk is neither a relative of the hawk nor his brother." | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 8:52 | comment | added | Hyperglyph | So the は in 本当は is just a normal topic marker. It isn't marking contrast, it's just saying that the topic is now 本当 and not 夜だか. Got it. "The truth is, neither a relative of the hawk nor his brother." | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 8:42 | comment | added | BJCUAI | Aでもない、Bでもない ＝ AでもBでもない Not A, also not B = Neither A nor B. | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 8:36 | comment | added | user4092 | 本当は doesn't mean "in contrast to the truth" but "actually / in reality". | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 8:17 | comment | added | Hyperglyph | A good way in English for me to phrase what I was thinking would be "There is a lie (in contrast to the truth) that he is the hawk's brother, but that is not so." | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 8:05 | comment | added | Hyperglyph | 本当は = In contrast to the truth (e.g. it is not true that...). 鷹の兄弟でも親類 = he is a relative or even a brother of the hawk. でもありません = but it is not so (that he is a relative of the hawk). That's how I broke it down in my mind. As sort of a double-sided sentence. "It's not true that he's a relative < > He's a relative, but that's not so." | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 7:35 | vote | accept | Hyperglyph | ||
| Feb 20, 2018 at 7:24 | comment | added | BJCUAI | Not sure I get you here. The story (just read some more of it) reiterates later on that while there is resemblance between the hawk and the nighthawk, they are not related. So, it would be 'despite appearances, the truth is...'. --- The AでもBでもない construction is like the English 'neither A nor B'. | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 7:05 | comment | added | Hyperglyph | Also, my reading of 本当は was correct then, right? The reading is "in contrast to the truth (e.g. a lie) that he is a relative or even (1st でも, a particle) a brother of the hawk but (2nd でも, a conjunction) it is not so (ありません). | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 7:04 | history | edited | BJCUAI | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 2 characters in body
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| Feb 20, 2018 at 7:02 | comment | added | naruto | @Hyperglyph Read on and you'll soon notice the author was using both 夜だか and よだか somewhat arbitrarily. | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 6:56 | comment | added | Hyperglyph | Ah! So 夜だか threw me. So far this book has only used よだか for the nighthawk. I guess it's trying to introduce new kanji along the way. | |
| Feb 20, 2018 at 6:33 | history | answered | BJCUAI | CC BY-SA 3.0 |