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Use of Particle

で particle, among other uses, is used to indicate the termination of something, wherein it acts like; "at; on, in". E.g. 大学は10月で終わる (The College will end in October), 2nd E.g. 私のパスポートは5月できれる (My passport expires in May).

Whereas, までに is used to show the time by when one does/will do, with a nuance of a time limit, wherein it acts like "by" E.g. 私10時までに家に帰る (I will be back by 10), 2nd E.g. 私は10時までに靴を買う (I will buy shoes by 10).

Background

While reading about this use of で, I found only the usage of this those sentences wherein the verbs highlighted/showcased the termination/end in itself and not otherwise, e.g. 終わる highlighted the termination/end in itself, or the use of きれる to highlighted the expiry that also indicates a termination/end in itself (if used like in the above sentence).

So, I tried to create my own sentence with those verbs which do not show termination/end in itself (e.g. of such verb 食べる does not highlight the termination/end in itself, 作る does not highlight the termination/end in itself.). I thought that, these verbs when used in Past Form, would indicate the end, as when an act is performed in past it has already ended.

However, when I used で, the sentence, it felt like, as per me, that they were pointing out towards the commencement of the action rather than the termination/end of it. E.g. 私は10時で食べた (I ate at 10), wherein it felt like that I started the act at 10, rather than the action terminated at 10, or E.g. 2 私は10時で食べ物を作った (I cooked the food at 10), wherein it felt like that I started making the food at 10, rather than it ended/terminated at 10.

Whereas, when I used the particle までに, these sentences sounded more of termination than で. E.g. 私は10時までに作った (I cooked by 10), wherein it felt like I cooked it, i.e. terminated/ended it.

Questions

  1. Can で be used with the past tense of the verbs, which do not show termination/end in itself, to highlight the termination/end of that action i.e. it got over at XYZ time/day/month e.g. with verb such as 食べる (Past 食べた), 読む(読んだ), 飲む (飲んだ) etc?

  2. If 1 is in positive, did the above sentence/(s) sounded like showcasing the termination/end, i.e. 私は10時で作った (I cooked at 10) sounded more like termination i.e. like the cooking got over at 10?

  3. If 1 is in negative, is までに, irrespective of its nuance of limitation, used to showcase the termination/end in the verbs that do not show termination/end in itself? Like in the above sentence 私は10時までに作った, felt like that the performance got over i.e. terminated/ended.

  4. Is there another way to showcase such termination/end in those verbs that do not act like they end in itself?

P.S.

This problem has been bothering me for a while. I went through the other website(s) and a few books, but I was unable to find it. The best help that I had was Google Translator. So, 教えてください.

  • Where did you find those first two examples for the usage of 「で」? Both sentences would sound better if 「に」was used instead. – JansthcirlU Jul 2 at 21:23
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    に can be used as well, however, when we use で the same gives a nuance that it lasted till XYZ moment. Reference: A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar – APK Jul 2 at 21:27
  • Interesting nuance! Also, thanks for the reference, it seems really useful. – JansthcirlU Jul 2 at 22:15
  • I found an example on the Tokyo University Foreign Languages website which goes「日本語が1年間で上手になりました。」Is this any helpful? I don't quite understand your third and fourth question. – JansthcirlU Jul 2 at 23:51
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    ^ Nah, で in 「1年間で上手になりました」 is different usage, 「period of time + で」"in [period of time]". で in 「大学は10月で終わる」 is 「point in time + で (something ends/completes)」 – Chocolate Jul 3 at 4:25
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+50

Can で be used with the past tense of the verbs, which do not show termination/end in itself, to highlight the termination/end of that action i.e. it got over at XYZ time/day/month e.g. with verb such as 食べる (Past 食べた), 読む(読んだ), 飲む (飲んだ) etc?

Not really, regardless of tense. Sentences like 10時で食べる or 10時で食べた basically don't make sense. Depending on verbs, however, it could mean that you do something on the condition of 10 o'clock. For example, 10時で始めた can barely make sense and you would interpret it that you started at 10. 10時でお願いした would be more natural and interpreted that you made a reservation for 10 or so.

If 1 is in negative, is までに, irrespective of its nuance of limitation, used to showcase the termination/end in the verbs that do not show termination/end in itself? Like in the above sentence 私は10時までに作った, felt like that the performance got over i.e. terminated/ended.

It depends on verbs and usage. As long as 作った and 食べた are concerned, it's interpreted that you finished it by 10. However, 10時までに動いた is not sure if you stopped by 10 or not.

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