5

I was studying some radicals and I found this: ⺹ (old, old-age) and this: 匕. But why this: 老 (old + spoon) means "old man, old age, grow old"?? Do Japaneses think a spoon can make you older in a shorter time? Should I stop using spoons and start to use only chopsticks?

Please help me clearifying all these doubts floating in my mind xD Thanks in advance!!

Improve this question
0

2 Answers 2

Reset to default
8

It appears that the 匕 component that we see in 老 did not start out as the same character as 匕 "spoon", but instead as a stylization of long hair and a cane. This is more apparent if you compare the progression of forms from ancient Shang inscriptions through to the modern shapes: see the 匕 glyph origin at Wiktionary, the 老 glyph origin, and by way of comparison, the 比 glyph origin, where the 匕 component again developed from a non-"spoon" origin.

When exploring the origins of Chinese characters, it's important to recognize that the modern forms are not necessarily indicative of the original forms. Things change over time, and there's a general trend towards simplification and standardization.

If you're really interested in the historical development of Chinese characters, look into getting a good character dictionary. I've heard good things about the 大漢和辞典 (Dai Kan-Wa Jiten), a serious and large monolingual Japanese resource. For English readers looking for a starter character etymology dictionary, I found Kenneth Henshall's A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters to be pretty good. Avoid anything by Heisig, however: he provides fanciful descriptions of each kanji that might be helpful for memorizing, but that have nothing to do with historical development.

Improve this answer
5
  • 1
    That 比 explanation on Wiktionary is not correct, compare the component in 比 with 人 and then 匕 again. I will concede the differences are rather small, so then we should look at it from another angle: [匕]{/*pijʔ/ > ひ} is a phonetic component in [比]{ /*pij-s/ > ひ}
    – dROOOze
    Sep 6, 2019 at 6:19
  • @droooze, I'd be more apt to view 比 as semantic + phonetic if the two components in the oldest forms of 比 weren't identical. I'm not 100% sold on the theory that the character is composed of two 人; as you note, the component variants in the Shang script are facing opposite directions in the two characters 人 and 比, and the component in 比 seems to have an additional shape element (the upward tick at the end of the shorter "leg"). That said, neither of the two identical components in 比 appear to be 匕 either, at least at the Shang stage -- unless that uptick is irrelevant?
    – Eiríkr Útlendi
    Sep 6, 2019 at 15:57
  • 1
    You can contrast 比 with 从. Well it seems that Wiktionary doesn't have enough glyph forms! Shang forms of 匕 were characterised by one or both of the following features: (1) the "uptick", and (2) the bottom/longer leg was curled backwards slightly. The facing direction is not a characteristic, and both 人 and 匕 faced either direction.
    – dROOOze
    Sep 7, 2019 at 2:21
  • 1
    The differences between 人 and 匕 were greatly eroded later, possibly contributing to them eventually being standardised with different facing directions, and contributing to the fall in use of 从 and the rise of the more complex variant 從.
    – dROOOze
    Sep 7, 2019 at 2:22
  • 1
    @droooze, excellent additional info, thank you! Some of the other Shang-era versions you posted and linked to make me think more of a bent fork or similar implement -- interesting that none show a closed-circle shape on the end of a stick, which is more what I'd expect for a "spoon, ladle" sense. Anyway, thanks!
    – Eiríkr Útlendi
    Sep 8, 2019 at 22:23
4

The other answer is correct. What you see as「匕」is a corruption of a walking-cane shape, not spoon, and you shouldn't break down「老」into two separate components.

「老」(old) depicts an old, decrepit person with long, unkempt hair, hunched over a walking stick.

商
甲
enter image description here
前2・2.6
合集36416西周
金
enter image description here
殳季良父壺
集成9713秦
簡
enter image description here
秦律雜抄32
睡虎地秦簡今
楷
enter image description here

　

As「老」is ultimately a depiction of a person, the core shape originally contained「人」. For reference:

商
甲
enter image description here
甲・2940
合集18901戰國・楚
簡・帛
enter image description here
2
{{ko:包}}山楚簡秦
簡
enter image description here
日書乙種17
睡虎地秦簡今
楷
enter image description here

　

This should serve as an indication of how dramatically simple shapes can change.

Chinese characters generally became more complex (not more simple) over time because (1) characters were often overloaded in usage and (2) shapes that were too simple were too easily confused with something else.「匕」is one of those components that you shouldn't take on face value, precisely because the shape is too simple, and several shapes that originally looked like something else have all converged into「匕」in the modern script.

As an actual component which provides some sort of function upon character decomposition,「匕」is a merger between two originally independent components which started to look extremely similar very early on.

(1) Semantic spoon and/or phonetic ひ

商
甲
enter image description here
甲・355
合集27578西周
金
enter image description here
我方鼎
集成2763今
楷
enter image description here

　

  • 「[比]{ひ}」(close/near, compare), from doubly semantic and phonetic「[匕]{ひ}」(spoon), depicting two spoons side-by-side;

    商
    甲
    enter image description here
    前7・6.4
    合集4240    戰國・楚
    簡・帛
    enter image description here
    253
    {{ko:包}}山楚簡    秦
    簡
    enter image description here
    秦律十八21
    睡虎地秦簡    今
    楷
    enter image description here

    　

  • 「旨」(delicious), from semantic「匕」(spoon) and semantic「口」(mouth) which later changed to「甘」(sweet), now looking like「曰」;

    商
    甲
    enter image description here
    乙・1054
    合集6828    西周
    金
    enter image description here
    殳季良父壺
    集成9713
    篆
    enter image description here
    旨部
    說文解字    今
    楷
    enter image description here

    　

  • 「[匙]{し}」(spoon), from semantic「匕」(spoon) and phonetic「[是]{し}」.


    篆
    enter image description here
    匕部
    說文解字    今
    楷
    enter image description here

    　

(2) A shape variant of「人」(person) found on the right-hand-side of characters

Note:「比」is generally not confusable, at least originally, with「从」(Shinjitai:「従」).「从」is also a rare exception to the right-hand-side shape change of「人」.

商
甲
enter image description here
甲・1124
合集10920商
金
enter image description here
宰椃角
集成9105戰國・楚
簡・帛
enter image description here
忠信之道5
郭店楚簡今
楷
enter image description here

　

  • 「死」(death), from semantic「歹」(picture of human remains > bad, wicked, evil) and semantic「匕・人」(person);

    商
    甲
    enter image description here
    甲・1165
    合集17057    戰國・楚
    簡・帛
    enter image description here
    42
    {{ko:包}}山楚簡    秦
    簡
    enter image description here
    為吏之道44
    睡虎地秦簡    西漢
    隸
    enter image description here

    馬王堆帛書    今
    楷
    enter image description here

    　

  • 「北」(back (anatomy), now written as「背」by adding on semantic「⺼・肉」meat/flesh), from semantic「匕・人」and its mirrored shape, depicting two people back-to-back;

    商
    甲
    enter image description here
    菁・2.1
    合集6057    戰國・楚
    簡・帛
    enter image description here
    153
    {{ko:包}}山楚簡    秦
    簡
    enter image description here
    法174
    睡虎地秦簡    今
    楷
    enter image description here

    　

  • 「此」(to trample on something, now written as「跐」by adding on semantic「足」foot), a compound of「止」(picture of one foot > stop) and a person「匕・人」.

    商
    甲
    enter image description here
    戩17.4
    合集27499    西周
    金
    enter image description here
    亞此犧尊
    集成5569    秦
    簡
    enter image description here
    日乙139
    睡虎地秦簡    今
    楷
    enter image description here

    　

To finish off, here's some other examples of how not to decompose characters to produce what looks like「匕」:

  1. Animals' legs.

  2. Body of a snake「它」, now written as「蛇」.

    商
    甲
    enter image description here
    卷3・79
    戰後寧滬新    春秋
    金
    enter image description here
    子仲伯匜
    集成10277    戰國・楚
    簡・帛
    enter image description here
    164
    {{ko:包}}山楚簡    今
    楷
    enter image description here

    　

  3. Corruption of feet「舛」in「乘」(Shinjitai:「乗」).

    商
    甲
    enter image description here
    粹1109
    合集6491    西周
    金
    enter image description here
    公臣簋
    集成4186
    篆
    enter image description here
    桀部
    說文解字    今
    楷
    enter image description here

    　

    「乘」was originally a picture of a person「大」climbing on top of a tree「木」; feet「舛」were added on to the person later.

    The original meanings were to ascend, to ride an object, extended to mean to take advantage of [a situation].

Improve this answer

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .