the gist of my question is that for the following statements, the ~ても feels out of place. More specifically it is almost feels absurd to make the exasperated "even if/although " statement in the first place, as the following statement is entirely expected.

I had this in the back of my head for a while, sometimes I didn't comprehend the sentence correctly at first so the ても initially felt out of place but that was my problem. However, there were still some sentences that I'm fairly sure that there aren't any misunderstandings that still had this logical disconnect. These 3 for example that i saved over time.

こいつ殴るとき全然腰入れてないし、男の腕力と比べてもやっぱりそこは普通の女子っぽい

she doesn't use her lower half when striking me, even if (?) compared to a guy's strength, her arm strength is definitely girl-esque. (well no duh, guys are stronger than girls)

一度にそんなにたくさん言われても対応出来るかァァ

前から思ってたんだ!! お前らちゃんと一列に並べェェ!!

  • speaker taking order at the register but all the customers are shouting at once

Even if(?) all of you are ordering this much at once, i can't take your orders! (this is probably the worst offender, as being unable to take all the order is just a no brainer if they're all shouting at once)

建学の精神は結構ですけれど、いきなり共学の是非を生徒に問われても、困惑するしかないでしょう?

  • introducing co-ed to an all girls school

The founding principles of the school are pretty damn ingrained but... even if we suddenly ask the students about the pros/cons of coeducation, it would only cause bewilderment. *(well yeah if you suddenly thrust that upon the students it would obviously cause issues...)


More clearly

for 一度にそんなにたくさん言われても対応出来るかァァ!

  1. Even if all of you are ordering this much at once, i can't take your orders!

    vs

  2. If all of you are ordering this much at once, i can't take your orders!

The first translation makes no sense, but it feels like that's what the original sentence was saying. Comparatively the 2nd "translation" makes more sense, but it's not what is actually being said so to speak...

thanks

--

edit dug up this one as well, regarding date plans

変に気張ってもお互い緊張するだけなので、今日はこんな感じでまったり彼女と過ごすことにする。

(even?) if I go full tryhard on today's activities, it would only make both of us uncomfortable, today I'm gonna take it easy with her.

perhaps a less extreme example, but i still feel it gets the feeling across,

  • Isn't the second example in contrast to the expectation? The expectation is for the order to be taken, but since all the customers are shouting at the same time, the speaker couldn't do it properly. Not sure about the other examples though. – DXV Sep 13 at 2:22
  • I guess another way to look at it would be these two statements. "Even if all of you are shouting at once, i can still take all your orders." - wow ! that's a amazing ! ...vs "Even if all of you are shouting at once, there's no way I can take all your orders" - wut? – charu Sep 13 at 2:32
  • Actually the correct translation is close to the 2nd one, If all of you are ordering this much at once, i can't take your orders! The ても means something like "because" here. Sorry I can't explain it right, so I'm looking for references that could help. Unless someone else answers first. – DXV Sep 13 at 2:55
  • The people shouting together are acting as though the person can handle it though. Their behavior is unreasonable, but I don't think that plays into the grammar. His response contradicts their apparent expectation of being able to all order simultaneously. – Leebo Sep 13 at 2:55
  • @DXV the first sentence wasn't meant to be a translation but just to illustrate how strange the actual literal translation is. – charu Sep 13 at 3:04
up vote 1 down vote accepted

According to 明鏡国語辞典:

《「…ても…ない」の形で、同じまたは類似した意味の動詞を並べて》事の成立を強く否定する。いかに努めても…できない。全く…ない。

Translation:

(When verbs carrying similar/identical meanings form a compound sentence with the construction 「…ても…ない」) Strongly deny that something is possible. Similar to 「いかに努めても…できない」 and 「全く…できない」

While the grammar doesn't exactly match, the usage is comparable and I believe the 1st, 3rd, and 4th sentences imply similar verbs, you just have to play with the wording a bit. For example, without losing any meaning, the 1st sentence could be changed to

…男の腕力に比べてもやっぱり比べ物にならない。

The 2nd sentence is not related because if you take the か off, it's a usage that I assume you know already. The か is just expressing outrage at the customers' expectations.

The 3rd sentence could be

…いきなり共学の是非の答えを求められても答えられないでしょう?

And as for the 4th (this is also kind of a play on words for my dictionary's definition of 気張る=息をつめて力を入れる)

変に気張っても、息をつめた様な空気しかない…

  • Interesting! the 2nd sentence and something like 「あんまりゆっくりしてても、お母さん帰ってきちゃうかもだし……」 - "if we we're too slow (ecchi), your mom will be back (before we finish)", would not apply right? – charu Oct 27 at 4:15
  • ahem....I think this example also falls under the usage I specified above、although the meaning is implied, as with the other examples. If you were to say it straightforward, it would be something like 「あんまりゆっくりしてても、最後までできない」. As for one that does not apply, you could say 「いくら頼んでも聞いてくれない」, or 「雨が降っても試合は中止しません」. These two examples are also of the 「…ても…ない」 form, but are considered different uses. They actually have names, respectively 逆説の確定条件 and 逆説の仮定条件. For it to not apply but have a similar construction, and be a compound sentence, it would have to be one of these two. – heretomurimudamura Oct 27 at 17:07
  • hm, i asked this question a while back for the 2nd sentence , and the あんまりゆっくりしてても, sentence and the response was "これはあまり正しくない日本語のように思います.若者言葉で崩れた日本語という場面ならありですが.この場合は,「ても」→「たら」のほうが良い場面が多いと思います." After your explanation i appended my decision tree with ても to first think "even if", if that doesn't work read it as たら, and if that does work, i use your 「…ても…ない」interpretation. Overall it feels very fluid without distinct boundaries. – charu Oct 27 at 20:32
  • Yeah, I would probably use たら in that last one as well. It sounds much more natural. – heretomurimudamura Oct 27 at 22:46

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