3

Depending on the kanji face the left element 言 in multi-element kanjis like 語 is sometimes depicted with 丶 instead of top 一 . It makes me think that the same transformation occurs for 𠫓: 云 changes to 𠫓 in multi-element kanjis. Is this true or not?

4

As a fuller answer, no, 云 does not change to 𠫓 in multi-element kanji, and these are not related characters.

The character 云 is a regular kanji / hanzi, originally a pictogram for "cloud" that was later repurposed to spell the homophonic word meaning "to say". (Details on Wiktionary.)The 云 character is used as a component of the larger characters 雲 and 曇, and the 云 character gets somewhat compressed, but the strokes remain essentially the same in shape and number.

The character 𠫓 looks quite similar to 云, depending on the font, but this is a very different character. 𠫓 appears to be an alternative or ancestor form of the ㄊ character in the Zhuyin script, also known as bopomofo, used as an alphabet to phonetically spell out Mandarin. ㄊ is essentially the letter T in bopomofo, and it was derived from an old alternative form of the modern character 突, read as in Mandarin. (Details on Wiktionary for ㄊ and for 突.) The chart here shows how to spell various Mandarin sounds using various transcription systems. The sixth column, labeled "Zhuyin Fuhao", contains the bopomofo spellings. The table is in alphabetical order. Scroll down to the section starting with t and you will see the ㄊ character used to spell all of the initial t sounds.

5

「云」and「𠫓」are not related.


「云{うん}」

A1


enter image description here
12
合集21021
A2


enter image description here
6.43.4
合集17072
A3
春秋

enter image description here
姑發劍
集成11718
A4


enter image description here
郭・緇・35
 
A5

古文
enter image description here
說文解字
 
A6


enter image description here

 

The specific construction of「云」is not universally agreed upon, but there is generally consensus that it contains a phonetic component that originally looked something like




enter image description here
京津4726
合集21324

If「云」contains a picture of a cloud, then it is said the phonetic component「B」was the original shape of the cloud (cf. resemblance to「A3」) and thus doubles as a semantic component. According to this theory, additional markings were added on to「B」to form「云」, and in「A1」, these markings look like a semantic component「上」.

「上」was originally in the shape of「二」; the vertical stroke was added later, possibly to differentiate the character from the extremely similar shape of the number「二」.

「B」is a phonetic component in several characters, e.g.:

  • 「旬{じゅん}」- originally was extremely similar or identical to「B」; if「B」was the original shape of「云」, this explains why markings were added to「云」to differentiate it from「旬」.

    C1


    enter image description here
    29
    合集16790
    C2
    西周

    enter image description here
    新邑鼎
    集成2682
    C3


    enter image description here
    {{kr:包}}2・183
     
    C4


    enter image description here
    日乙46
     
    C5


    enter image description here

     

    Semantic「日」was added later (「C2」onwards), and「B」was corrupted into「勹」(「C3」onwards).

  • 「軍{くん}」- from semantic「車」(war chariot).

    D1
    戰國

    enter image description here
    燕右軍矛
    集成11484
    D2


    enter image description here
    睡・雜8
     
    D3


    enter image description here

     

    「B」was later corrupted into「冖」(「D2」onwards).


「𠫓」 (Zhengzhang OC:[「毓」]{/*luɡ/}·[「𠫓」]{/*duːd/}·[「㐬」]{/*ru/})

Note: /l/, /d/, and /r/ are related, being all alveolar consonants.

「毓」depicts a woman (「每」, which was originally「女」or「母」with an extra marking near the top) giving birth to a child「𠫓」(upside-down「子」) along with the release of amniotic fluid (now looking similar to「川」).

E1


enter image description here
722
合集27320
E2
西周

enter image description here
班簋
集成4341
E3


enter image description here
說文或體
 
E4


enter image description here

 

「毓」is now replaced by「育」, which is a later construction. 「育{いく}」is composed from semantic「毓」>「𠫓」and phonetic「肉{にく}」.

  • 「𠫓」is simplified from「毓」by removing everything except the top-right component.

    • 「[𠫓]{/*luɡ/}」originally represented the same word as「毓」. For example, see 《甲骨文合集》27042, where「𠫓多」is interpreted as「毓多」meaning to birth many children.




      enter image description here

      合集27042

    • 「[毓]{/*luɡ/}」>「[𠫓]{/*duːd/}」was a semantic extension utilising the simplified「毓」as a phonetic loan for「[突]{/*duːd/}」(sudden/unexpected, cf.「[突然]{とつぜん}」), as recorded by Xu Shen, the author of Shuowen Jiezi.

      G1


      enter image description here
      說文解字
       
      G2


      enter image description here

       

      Upside down child「倒子」was "creatively reinterpreted" as unfilial child「不孝子」. Quote from Shuowen:

      「𠫓,不順忽出也。从到子。《易》曰:『突如其來如[,焚如死如棄如。]』不孝子突出,不容於內也。」

      「𠫓」, antagonistic, sudden, and unexpected. From upside-down「子」. Quote from I Ching: "Unexpected/antagonistic [actions] invites [burning, death, abandonment as punishment]". Unfilial children act unexpectedly with hostility and disobedience, and are not tolerated by their own kin.

    • 「𠫓」also represents an upside-down child in several other characters, e.g.「棄」.

      「棄」was originally a depiction of a baby「子」being put into a basket「𠀠」to be abandoned (two hands「廾」).

      H1


      enter image description here
      2.21.14
      合集8451
      H2


      enter image description here
      睡・法167
       
      H3


      enter image description here

       

      In「棄」,「子」was turned upside-down into「𠫓」and「𠀠」was corrupted into「丗」(or similar;「H2」onwards), while「廾」was corrupted into「木」(「H3」).


      Note:「𠀠」as an individual character is now written as「其」, and the original word for basket is now written as「箕」.

  • 「㐬」is the right hand side of「毓」, and did not originally exist as an individual character.

    • The right hand side of「[毓]{/*luɡ/}」was later reinterpreted as a phonetic component「[㐬]{/*ru/}」.
    • 「㐬」may also be viewed as a semantic component meaning flow (e.g. of water) > to pass through in some characters, extended from the picture of the upside-down baby and amniotic fluid flowing out of the mother. The most prominent character with this component is「[流]{/*ru/}」; cf.「[流産]{りゅ​うざん}」(miscarriage).

      J1
      戰國

      enter image description here
      ⿰妾子𧊒壺
      集成9734
      J2


      enter image description here
      上・性・19
       
      J3


      enter image description here
      睡・封29
       
      J4


      enter image description here

       


References:

2

The character 𠫓 is actually the character 子 (child) turned upside down. See the compounds 育 (rising up) or 棄 (abandoning). The character 云 is a derivation of the component 厶 (which can be interpreted as energy). In that sense 云 is more specifically energy above, in the sky. So no, 𠫓 and 云 do not have to do anything with each other.

  • The character 𠫓 derives from the character 子 (child) turned upside down, but it is not the same character. 子 is three strokes, becoming four when upside down, as seen in the Wiktionary entries for , , and . 𠫓 is only three strokes: the topmost element is part of the same angled line forming the ム shape. The bopomofo letter ㄊ is a different glyph with a different codepoint, but it too is three strokes, as seen in the Chinese Wikipedia page. – Eiríkr Útlendi Jan 24 '17 at 18:47
  • 1
    Also, 云 graphically includes the ム component, but it is not derived from ム. 云 is a very old pictographic glyph depicting a swirling cloud shape, as visible here in how the glyph originated. – Eiríkr Útlendi Jan 24 '17 at 18:50

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