7

I was reading this, and maybe I'm just missing some common knowledge, but the following part of the sentence in question surprised me:

しかも付録までついてこれは買うしかない!!

Specifically, 「付録までついて」. I wonder why it's not 「付録ついてまで」? It seems to me that まで ("even") refers to 「付録ついて」 ("present included"). So why is it in the middle of what it is referring to? Or am I parsing it incorrectly perhaps?

If 「付録までついて」 and 「付録ついてまで」 are both correct, what is the difference between the two?

  • 1
    「~~ついてまで...」「~~してまで...」だと "go so far as to~~ in order to..." "even do~~ in order to..." になってしまう (例: "go so far as to borrow money in order to buy" 「借金してまで買う」(=「借金までして買う」) など) ので、「付録がついてまで、これは買うしかない!」はダメですが、「付録がついてまでいて (≂ついてまでいるので)、これは買うしかない!」ならいいと思います。(でも、回りくどいので、「付録までついて(いて・いるので)~」のほうが好まれると思います。) – Chocolate Jun 9 '16 at 8:34
6

付録ついてまで買うしかない is wrong because te-form of a verb + てまで only works as an adverbial sub-clause which modifies the following verb. It means "~ even by V-ing", "~ even when V-ing", "~ even if V-ing", etc. 付録ついてまで買うしかない hardly makes sense, but it would feel more like "I have no choice but to buy it even when it comes with a gift". (1万円払ってまで買うしかない makes sense: "I have to buy it even if I have to pay 10,000 yen.")

The original sentence in question:

付録までついてこれは買うしかない

is essentially two independent sentences, simply connected using the te-form. This sentence can be split into two sentences without changing the meaning (i.e., 「付録がついている。買うしかない。」). Here, this te-form simply functions like English coordinating conjunctions such as "and". In this case, verb + てまで doesn't work well.

Examples:

  1. 映画館に行ってまで見たくはない。
  2. 映画館にまで行って見たくはない。
  3. こんな苦労までして勉強しないといけないの?
  4. こんな苦労をしてまで勉強しないといけないの?

In the above examples, te-form + まで and まで + te-form are interchangeable because the first clause is a sub-clause which describes the situation/condition of the main clause (ie, "even when", etc). If we split these sentences into two (eg, 「こんな苦労をした。勉強しないといけないの?」), the meaning of the sentence would change greatly.

  1. 仕事まで失って、家族はなんと言うだろう。
  2. [*]仕事を失ってまで、家族はなんと言うだろう。
  3. ミッキーだけでなくミニーにまで会えて、とても楽しかった。
  4. [*]ミッキーだけでなくミニーに会えてまで、とても楽しかった。

Here, 6 and 8 are wrong because the first clause is not a sub-clause but a coordinate clause.

You can find more examples of てまで here.

Alternatively, you can insert an extra te-form after まで to turn it into a coordinate clause.

  • 付録が付くまでしていて、買うしかない。
  • 付録が付いてまでいて、買うしかない。

But these sound redundant and a bit awkward.


Note: This answer has been heavily revised after reviewing the comments from others.

  • 「付録ついてまで」が間違いなのは、次の「これは買うしかない」との繋がりがまずいためであって、「まで」が「ついて」という動詞を包括すること自体は誤りではないと思うんです。(「付録がついてまでいて」が冗長だけど誤りではないことが示すように。) 接続の問題を回避するために、例えば、「しかも付録までついている。これは買うしかない!」と「しかも付録がついてまでいる。これは買うしかない!」のようすると、これらはどちらでも正しい気がします。(前者の方が好ましくはありますが。)いかがでしょうか:) – goldbrick Jun 9 '16 at 22:19
  • @goldhick 確かに一番目の理由はもはやどうでもいいように思えてきましたね…。 – naruto Jun 9 '16 at 23:04
  • @goldhick もう思いっきり書き換えました(community wikiにしました)。これでどうでしょう? – naruto Jun 10 '16 at 2:07
  • I feel like I understand much better now. Thank you and everyone else who contributed! – kuchitsu Jun 10 '16 at 15:52
  • ばっちりだと思います!怪しい回答ばかりしてる私の指摘に、素晴らしい対応をしてもらいありがとうございます。 私が変な事を言っていた時は、ご指南の程宜しくお願いします。:) – goldbrick Jun 12 '16 at 13:23
2

まで in 付録までついて modifies 付録.

まで in 付録ついてまで modifies 付録ついて but I feel it is unnatural. 付録つけてまで is natural. For example, この出版社は、付録付けてまでその本を売りたいようだ(This publishing company seems to want to sell the book even with present.)

付録までついて is only natural in this sentence and I don't come up the example used 付録ついてまで.

2

It's true that they aren't grammatically parallel, but let's look at it this way:

even bundled with a present : 付録がつき​まで{LL}する

bundled even with a present : 付録​まで{LL}つく

bundled with even a present : 付録​まで{LL}がつく

The three English phrases technically have different meanings, but we tend to choose the first one at all times, since it's far more natural than others, which I believe is because English even is an adverb. Likewise, we disproportionately prefer the second one in Japanese, because it sounds neatest as Japanese まで is a 取り立て助詞 ("focusing particle") that can modify nouns and other particles.

Meanwhile, 付録ついてまで doesn't even belong to the same structure with the three above, though itself is grammatical. For example, 付録までついて is 付録までつく + て, so て is in the most outer layer. Since て makes adverbial clause (or you can say it's a conjunction), the whole part becomes an independent chunk in sentence.

付録までついてこれは買うしかない
It is even bundled with an extra present, thus, you definitely have no choice but to buy it
or
As it is even bundled with an extra present, you definitely have no choice but to buy it

But 付録ついてまで is 付録(が)つく + て + まで, so まで is wrapping up everything. Since まで is a particle a.k.a. postposition (=preposition in English), it becomes like a prepositional phrase as a whole.

付録ついてまでこれは買うしかない
Until how it is bundled with an extra present, you definitely have no choice but to buy it

As you can see it's a senseless sentence.

0

I think I perfectly understand your puzzlement. Let's see if I can relieve some of it.

First we have two specimens to examine:

① 付録までついて
② 付録がついてまで

(I think in ②, after the "付録", a "が" is required, formally speaking, because "まで" that 'absorbs' it in ① is dissociated from the subject in ②.)

In ①, the implication is that something other than the "付録" is already included, since the "まで" attaches only to the "付録".

Whereas in ②, the implication is that some event other than "付録 is included" is present, since the "まで" modifies the entire "付録がついて".

This is all well and logical, but being logical isn't exactly what we are when use our language. Despite the difference described above, I'm inclined to say few people would have second thoughts about speaking like ① when what they really mean is ②. In fact I believe to talk like ② would be something of a hypercorrection. (As far as this case is concerned, that is. There are many occasions where using "まで" after the verb is fine, preferred, or is the right choice.)

(Had I written "the 'まで' only attaches to the '付録'", instead of "the 'まで' attaches only to the '付録'" three paragraphs back, would you have understood any differently?)

So, the bottom line is, "しかも付録までついてこれは買うしかない!!" is just exactly how we usually talk. (And there's something about this sentence that makes using ②付録がついてまで exceedingly inapt here. Can't say what, though.)

  • I like this sentence: "but being logical isn't exactly what we are when use our language". :) It's a good reminder that just learning all the rules isn't enough. – kuchitsu Jun 10 '16 at 15:54

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