This page explains that a noun with と, で, から, まで that modifies another noun must have の attached to them as in:


But it lists this example


Both with で. what is the difference between them? Are there other rules about の and と, で, から, まで, etc?


The difference is that での shows the relationship to a following noun, just as the page says. 日本での研究 forms a single noun phrase ("research in Japan"), and this noun phrase as a whole is marked as a topic with は.

In the other example, 大学院で isn't part of a noun phrase. Instead, it modifies the following predicate, (医学の研究を)する ("do medical research").

So it's just as the web page says. If you see ~での, you should be figuring out what noun it links to (研究), and if you see ~で, you should be figuring out what verb (or other predicate) it links to (する).


In English, "in ~", "from ~" and so on modifies something both adverbially and adjectivally. In Japanese, you have to distinguish. Since more and more questions are being marked as a duplicate of this one, I'll add some examples to illustrate when you need の with と/で/から/まで.

  • 昨日彼と話した。
    I talked with him.
  • 彼との話し合いは昨日行われた。
    The meeting with him was held yesterday.
  • 日本で生活している。
    I live in Japan.
  • 日本での生活は楽しい。
    Life in Japan is fun.
  • カナダから手紙が来た。
    A letter came from Canada.
  • カナダからの手紙を読んだ。
    I read a letter from Canada.
  • 朝まで待ちます。
    I'll wait until the morning.
  • 朝までの時間を過ごす場所を探そう。
    Let's find a place to spend the time until the morning.

And more complicated examples:

  • 先生から手紙を読めと言われた。
    I was told by my teacher to read the letter (from someone else).
    (先生から modifies 言われた.)
  • 先生からの手紙を読めと言われた。
    I was told (by someone else) to read the letter from my teacher.
    (先生からの modifies 手紙.)
  • 神戸で大阪から東京への切符を買った。
    I bought in Kobe a ticket from Osaka to Tokyo.
    (~から~へ and ~から~まで is a set phrase and only one の is necessary)
  • 彼とのインドへの旅行は楽しかった。
    The trip to India with him was fun.
    (Two の are necessary)

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