using の with と,で, から, まで

Question

http://www.shiro.jp.net/2013/10/tono-deno-kakrano-madenoeno-learning.html

This page explains that a noun with と, で, から, まで that modifies another noun must have の attached to them as in:

日本での研究はいかがでしたか。

But it lists this example

大学院で医学の研究をするつもりです。

Both with で. what is the difference between them? Are there other rules about の and と, で, から, まで, etc?

Answer 1

The difference is that での shows the relationship to a following noun, just as the page says. 日本での研究 forms a single noun phrase ("research in Japan"), and this noun phrase as a whole is marked as a topic with は.

In the other example, 大学院で isn't part of a noun phrase. Instead, it modifies the following predicate, （医学の研究を）する ("do medical research").

So it's just as the web page says. If you see ～での, you should be figuring out what noun it links to (研究), and if you see ～で, you should be figuring out what verb (or other predicate) it links to (する).

Answer 2

In English, "in ～", "from ～" and so on modifies something both adverbially and adjectivally. In Japanese, you have to distinguish. Since more and more questions are being marked as a duplicate of this one, I'll add some examples to illustrate when you need の with と/で/から/まで.

• 昨日彼と話した。
  I talked with him.
• 彼との話し合いは昨日行われた。
  The meeting with him was held yesterday.
• 日本で生活している。
  I live in Japan.
• 日本での生活は楽しい。
  Life in Japan is fun.
• カナダから手紙が来た。
  A letter came from Canada.
• カナダからの手紙を読んだ。
  I read a letter from Canada.
• 朝まで待ちます。
  I'll wait until the morning.
• 朝までの時間を過ごす場所を探そう。
  Let's find a place to spend the time until the morning.

And more complicated examples:

• 先生から手紙を読めと言われた。
  I was told by my teacher to read the letter (from someone else).
  _{(先生から modifies 言われた.)}
• 先生からの手紙を読めと言われた。
  I was told (by someone else) to read the letter from my teacher.
  _{(先生からの modifies 手紙.)}
• 神戸で大阪から東京への切符を買った。
  I bought in Kobe a ticket from Osaka to Tokyo.
  _{(～から～へ and ～から～まで is a set phrase and only one の is necessary)}
• 彼とのインドへの旅行は楽しかった。
  The trip to India with him was fun.
  _{(Two の are necessary)}