Old title: Conditional patterns comparison

Recently, I stumbled on new grammar patterns using the conditional form the following way (and I could not find an explanation in any of my grammar books) :

  • 名詞・形容動詞+なら+形容動詞+で
  • 連用形+たら+た+で
  • 動詞: 已然形+ば+連用形+た+で
  • 形容詞: 已然形+ば+終止形+で
  • 形容動詞: 已然形+ば+語根+で
  • 名詞: であれば+ 名詞 + で

Example: 休んだら休んだで、たくさんやることがある。

The author of the website that explains this pattern says that the particles で can be replaced (in most case) by ほど.

In which case, で is better that ほど ?

I modify the question, what is the meaning of this pattern ?

The website which explains the pattern is here.

  • So what are you asking exactly? Are you asking about comparing the patterns as the title seems to indicate, or more about で/ほど?
    – istrasci
    Jan 12, 2014 at 23:14
  • The author of the website says that if you came up with a sentence 休めば休んだで... and are told it is wrong, then most likely you confused で and ほど and should construct your sentence as 休めば休んだほど....
    – Earthliŋ
    Jan 13, 2014 at 15:22
  • 1
    ~~ば~~ほど (eg 休めば休むほど/お金はあればあるほど/部屋は広ければ広いほどetc.) has a different meaning: "The more ~~, the more~~" ejje.weblio.jp/content/… (休んだら休んだほど sounds awkward. 休んだら休んだだけ sounds okay but it also has a different meaning.)
    – user1016
    Jan 13, 2014 at 15:22
  • I though that で and ほど were more or less equivalent here but I am apparently wrong. So I would be interested in knowing what does mean the pattern using で. Jan 13, 2014 at 15:40

2 Answers 2


By replacing de by hodo, I suppose, the author of the website is referring to a similar (as he thinks) construct of an utterly different meaning. It is explained in his web page explaining hodo.

As for the expression with de, it means something similar to its former half only. The repetitious construction is often used, for example, to describe an undesired consequence (e.g., having lots of things to do) of a condition that is seemingly preferable (e.g., taking a rest).


No, it means that they look similar in form, not that they have any similar meaning. The OP, I believe, is confused about the fact that this construction exists. And, it just so happens to starkly resemble the conditional + ほど pattern. Because of this, when students mess this up, they tend to conflate them. It's not that they have any similarity in meaning.

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