How does に+だって work if に＋だ and に＋で is incorrect?

Question

So if we take this sentence 「鳥や魚にだって喜怒哀楽の感情があると思う。」

We can see that the に particle is directly attached to the だ copula. The だ copula really just being である, doesn't this mean the に particle and で particle have been attached? I was under the assumption that 格助詞 (or logical particles for Cure Dolly students) cannot attach to each other- which is why we can do には (Since は is a 副助詞 or non-logical particle) and we can't do にが for example.

Is my understanding of だって weird and the だ here is actually not the copula? Or is there some reason that the に particle can attach to the particle here?

I understand that when we shorten stuff, we can use them in cases they would not normally be able to be used in- for example って can be used in さくらって日本人だ, however, さくらという日本人だ doesn't mean the same thing despite って being a shortened form of という.

I'm hesitant to believe that this is what's happening here because the above works consistently, while neither にだ nor にである seems to be seen anywhere else in Japanese.

I suspect this may have to do with the etymology of the word maybe?

Would appreciate someone shining the light on this matter or just sharing their thoughts.

Answer 1

How is this any different from the use of だって to express "even". In this context,

Even birds and fish have emotions.

I don't know the etymology of だって, but the construction here is not

~ にだって ...

But rather,

~ に ... ある

where in the second だって is appended to the phrase 鳥や魚に in order to convey the English equivalent of even.

To say,

Aに喜怒哀楽の感情がある

is to say,

A has feelings of human emotion.

Grammatically, the Japanese and English are set up different. You could perhaps try something more literal, but the English will sound very awkward.

Feelings of human emotion are in birds and fish

Answer 2

英語が不得手ですので日本語で答えてさせてもいいでしょうか。 （I can still try to explain in English if you REALLY need it.） 結論から言うと、現代日本語の「だって」は「接続助詞」か「副助詞」として使われると考えています。用例は下記の通りです。

・接続助詞の「だって」：反駁することを表す。

[遅刻の理由を問われ]「だって家は早く出たのに事故で電車が来ないんです」

・副助詞の「だって」：特殊な場合を例示し、他の場合も同様であるということを表す。

「私だって嫌です」

（新明解国語辞典第八版）

つまり、「だって」は確かに断定の助動詞（＝copula）「だ」と係助詞「とて」に由来したが、ここでは「ひとまとまり」の助詞として考えれば大丈夫です。コピュラとしての「だ」にこだわる必要はないと思います。

Just like でも is now used as a 接続助詞 or a 副助詞 ("兄にでも相談する"). The で in でも is also derived from the copula だ, but there is no need to seperate all the elements in the word.

（ただ、「だって」はどのように助詞として独立したのか、それはまた別の問題ですね。）

Answer 3

We can see that the に particle is directly attached to the だ copula. The だ copula really just being である, doesn't this mean the に particle and で particle have been attached? I was under the assumption that 格助詞 (or logical particles for Cure Dolly students) cannot attach to each other- which is why we can do には (Since は is a 副助詞 or non-logical particle) and we can't do にが for example.

I know Cure Dolly teaches this, but to be honest, this can fall into the big bucket of wrong things Cure Dolly teaches. There is a bit to unpack here. Firstly “〜だ" can attach to about anything. You won't find say “あなたにだ。” very often, but one can say it to mean “It's for you.” It'll sooner arise as “あなたにです” because there at least the polite version has a function of making it polite “あなたに” on itself is usually used, but for instance as a more practical example something like “心配しているよ、君のことをだ。” is perfectly grammatical, removing the “〜だ” in no way changes the meaning. Adding it simply makes the sentence sound more firm and assertive. “〜だ” is also not even a “格助詞” I believe in Japanese grammar but I know Cure Dolly teaches that it can only follow nouns and na-adjectives. Cure Dolly is wrong. All these sentences are grammatical:

• なんでだよ？
• そうだ。
• 行かなくちゃだけど。
• 分かりませんでした。
• 私がですか？いいえ、食べたことはありません。
• 私はですね、そういう音楽がかなり好きです。

Also, “〜の” is evidently a “格助詞” and can of course follow many other particles. “お母さんへの手紙” or “お母さんからの金” are both perfectly fine.

Then we get into whether “〜だって” is actually a form of “〜だ” to begin with. In theory it's the “〜たって” form of “〜だ” the same way “〜でも” is the “〜ても” form of “〜だ” but in practice it doesn't always work that way and both are just a more emphatic version of “〜も” so it depends on how it's used.

• 私だって食べたことあるよ。
• 人は大人だって自由じゃない。

In both cases we can replace “〜だって” with “〜でも” for essentially the same effect but only in the first case can we replace it with “〜も” for something similar. In the first case it's a binding particle that occupies the same space as “〜も" and “〜は” and follows other particles but replaces “〜が” and “〜を”. In the second case it's indeed a form of “〜だ” and it simply means “Being an adult still doesn't make a man free.” or I guess more literally and awkward “A man, even if he be an adult, is not free.”

So in your example the meaning is fairly close to “〜も” and leads to ”I think even birds and fish have feelings.” I wouldn't treat it as a form of “〜だ”. It just so happens that “〜だ” can also follow other particles which is a different unrelated discussion.