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Sep
24
awarded  Autobiographer
Aug
13
awarded  Popular Question
Jul
27
awarded  Citizen Patrol
Jul
27
accepted Can 依存はない mean “no objection”?
Jul
27
comment Can 依存はない mean “no objection”?
Thanks, this explains everything. Should have guessed, considering I've encountered a similar issue before. The book in question is "Dictionary of intermediate Japanese grammar" (日本語文法辞典) by Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui, which is quite reputable, as far as I know. Perhaps a newer edition has this example corrected.
Jul
27
revised Can 依存はない mean “no objection”?
added 4 characters in body
Jul
27
asked Can 依存はない mean “no objection”?
Oct
20
accepted 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
Oct
20
comment 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
@Hyperworm Thank you very much for the comment. After some deep thinking it resolved all my doubts, alongside with Earthling's comments. So, depending on the context, "小学生まで" can mean both "even elementary school (age) and younger" and "even elementary school (age) and older".
Oct
20
revised 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
Added yet another clarification on top of the question that I'm only interested in the translation of the particle, not the entire translation (which some people may or may not find useful nonetheless).
Oct
20
revised 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
added 19 characters in body
Oct
20
comment 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
(1) Yes, this translation sounds better. (2,3) I found the following sentence in weblio: 「子供にまで笑われる」 ("He/she is laughed at even by children"). In this sentence まで means "school students and older people", not "school students and younger people". So it seems that really you need the context to tell which of these two contradictory meanings ("up to and including") or ("starting from and including") まで takes. I think it is starting to make some sense to me.
Oct
20
comment 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
Also, can まで in the meaning of "even" specify the lower age bound ("as young as and older") or only the higher bound ("as old as and younger")? For example, can I use まで to say that "even young children can be millionaires"?
Oct
20
comment 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
Is this something you can derive only from the context?
Oct
20
comment 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
So what exactly makes まで translate here as "until" and not "even"? The "even" variant ("Virginity is allowed even for elementary school.") would assert that virginity is "allowed" for elementary school and younger age, but it would not explicitly imply it is not allowed for older age. On the other hand, if まで is used here in the sense of "up to", as you suggested ("Virginity is allowed up to elementary school.") the meaning would be different, since it would explicitly state that anyone older than elementary school students are not allowed to be virgins.
Oct
20
revised 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
deleted 42 characters in body
Oct
20
awarded  Commentator
Oct
20
revised 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
added 78 characters in body
Oct
20
comment 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで
@Ataraxia This is what I'm thinking as well. Western languages seem to treat an adult person as the reference point for age ranges introduced with the word "even". For example, "even schoolchidren" would usually mean "schoolchildren and older" and "even old people" would usually mean "old people and younger", unless noted otherwise. Perhaps in Japanese this presumption is weaker and the scope of the age range defined with the word "even" is more often taken from the context? (I hope what I just wrote makes any sense...)
Oct
19
asked 童貞が許されるのは小学生までだよね - translation of まで