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You are right about that ほど can be a substitute for this kind of まで in these phrases. However, they are not nouns. This まで is 副助詞 and this ほど is also 副助詞. Dictionaries (eg. 大辞林, 大辞泉) define both the noun meaning and the 副助詞 meaning of ほど. までに is considered a collocation(連語) in these dictionaries. So, they contain the entry of までに. According to the second ...



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